Potential New User - d20Pro vs. FG - Which to Choose?

There aren't any perfect table top programs. None of them will do everything you want. You need to decide what is important for you and your players.

My bare minimum requirements were: support for Pathfinder ruleset, support for importable maps, combat automation and integration with Hero Builder. I planned to play games locally using a dual monitor setup only; but I am now considering adding some remote friends to tabletop sessions since d20pro is flexible enough to do both well.

Why did I pick d20pro? Excellent map interface that includes miniature movement, fog-of-war and adjustable map grids. Automated combat, save and skill rolls to speed up game play (this was essential since most of my players are clueless about the mechanics -- they want to roleplay, not spend hours in a turn-based combat simulator). Reasonable price. It imports from Hero Builder. A solid fan-built bestiary selection.

What HAS to be improved (IMNSHO)? Developer communication about what is being worked on, what isn't viable and what the time frames for updates might be. The spell system requires every GM to reinvent the wheel -- you have to create EACH spell for EACH level. These are the things that really made me think long and hard when considering which program to purchase. These are the things that will make or break this table top program this year because the other ones are very viable. That all said, I have faith that communication will improve dramatically and that the spell system issue will be resolved soon.

What would be nice but not essential (IMNSHO)? The graphics for the interface. Fluff things like rolling dice animations, skins for the tabletop, etc. Character sheet customization. Better map grid alignment that allows x and y axis to be adjusted more finely and separately. Implementation of many of the proposed ideas on the Google thingie.

What could I care less about? The market.

Your mileage may of course vary....

 

Hi NWNDM, it's always great to hear we're on somebody's short list!

I'm obviously biased on this one (and if I were you, I'd rather have users sway me than one of the devs), so I'll just chime in on AEIOU's points on what we can improve. Communication from our team isn't as good as it has been in the past, except for edwardcd of course, and we're really trying to get back into the swing of that. As far as the spell casting and effects system goes, AEIOU is right on point and this is something we're working on addressing right now. We've gotten a lot of feedback about this and we're at the point right now where we're sitting down to start coding massive changes to the spell and effects system. I don't have a good list of what this all will include that I can share right now, but what AEIOU brought up about having to create the same spell over and over is a situation we have specifically used a part of our planning.

 

One more thing. Ease of use was a huge selling point for me too.

Setup for a new adventure is painless. Map import is simple. Character import takes no thinking. Dropping creatures on the map is fast. Moving miniatures is intuitive. Combat is amazingly fast with initiative, attacks and damage all taken care of efficiently. In other words, the mundane mechanics of games are all handled (with the glaring exception of spells/effects) by d20pro. We spend the majority of our time roleplaying rather than playing a miniature simulator which for me is really important.

Daggeth -- I know the devs are working on things to make our roleplaying more enjoyable. I didn't make my negative comments because I'm unhappy with d20pro. Quite the opposite really since I'm quite satisfied with the product.

 

Ugh. Now you you had to talk about VTT videos. :|

I looked long and hard for actual game footage that showed actual content being used by actual people but none of the VTT's really offered any. I have to give d20pro credit for at least posting something.

However, while the d20pro promo videos show quite a bit about what the program can do, I didn't find them very helpful. They are slick marketing montages. A quick barrage of eye candy and feature lists. That said, now that I'm familiar with the program the videos make perfect sense and I can easily see the features they are selling -- but I know what I am looking at. As a complete newbie, all I saw was a lot of flashing screens. I had to rewatch the videos several times, pausing frequently, to actually see what was offered.

Did you ask what I'd find more useful? :lol: Something that showed people actually using the tools. Dropping a huge dragon on a map. People chatting. Movement of mini's and revealing of fog-of-war. Combat. Skill checks and handouts. Flying and stealth. Running through some more combat and AoE's. Map scrolling and zooming. Shift back and forth between different d20 games. Seeing a live game with a projector or LCD. Seeing an online-only game. Seeing it being used at conventions.

The icing on the cake would have been a second video showing how to prep for a game session. Adding maps, and creatures, and fog-of-war, and and and....

 

Some snips of a game in process showing the mechanics in use. Show several different encounters including different creature sizes. Show fudging rolls. How to create and use healing spells, direct damage spells, buffs and AoE's. (The spell system implementation isn't BAD per se, it's powerful but requires a bit more planning and work on the GM's part -- what it really needs is being able to create a library of spells similar to the community bestiary). It could be interesting to run some of the combats manually and time with/without d20pro. Finally, please please please use modules,maps, minis available through the online store. Use the video to advertise both d20pro and the extra add-ons at the same time. Show us what custom built VTT material should look like!

And thank you for the information on FG. I thought it was a very fair assessment and response.

 

Hey NWNDM, I read your post and had to chime in.

I casually was researching Virtual Table Tops a year or so ago, and did a pretty deep investigation into the tools and products available. Like you, I ended up looking closely at Fantasy Grounds and d20Pro, comparing and contrasting them. Recently, I decided to go ahead and jump in and purchase one (both have trials available, and both have a pretty supportive community supporting each product).

However, as you expressed, it's hard to get a feel how these platforms work just "researching' or looking at them somewhat casually. I've always learned best by reading about something and then trying to do it, and that's a bit difficult without a few spare people to put up with you while you struggling learning the mechanics of the program.

You fire up the trial and you're just met with a blank screen and some icons that must mean something about something. :shock:

I've pretty much figured out there's going to be a very steep learning curve associated with VTTs, regardless. VTTs are very much labors of love for the developers (they aren't going to sell 5 million copies of them, and they realize that), but I think sometimes the devs forget how very alien their environments look to folks just checking them out for the first time.

I just purchased my license for d20Pro an hour or so ago, and I know it's going to be a bit of an uphill battle until I'm comfortable with both the environment (making sure I've got the right ruleset / whatever it's called loaded up and available), and how to manage my assets (how to get my pretty maps and characters all loaded up into the environment).

Why d20Pro? A combination of what were more important features to me, how I've seen both programs change over the course of a year (just looking in at them from the outside, not being an active user), and d20Pro's user guide.

I posted a question over a year ago here on forums (because I was confused as all get-out, surprise surprise), and not only was my question quickly answered on the forums, it was also incorporated into the user guide.

Regardless, good luck with your search. I think you'll be well-served with either of these products, but I voted for one with my gold pieces.

-- Andy

 

Curtis,

I'd love to see all three of these, but I realize how horribly long these must take to produce. A game-prep video would best serve me at this time, given a choice.

I've watched some pretty painful videos the past few weeks checking out VTTs. Role-playing in person can be wince-worthy if you're not sitting at the table and participating (everyone's style's so very different, both players and referees), and even some of the videos I've watched purporting to help explain the functionality of the VVT environment or tools can be hard to suffer through if the host is rambling, or gets a bit lost, or forgets where they put which file, etc.

All those semi-mean things typed though, I'm pleased folks take the time to share their sessions and offer tutorials / walk-throughs with others. And even on YouTube (a "hive of scum and villany" ) I never disliked a video or left any snarky comments. A lot of work goes into even the simplest tutorial, and I respect those efforts.

-- Andy

 

Curtis,

The game preparation tutorial (in the user guide) is pretty much exactly what I'd like to see in a game-prep video (I'll actually be working my way through it today!). It's what benefits me at this point in learning the software: simple instructions (do this, then that ... with just a bit of the "why") to help me get up to speed using the software.

I think NWNDM was pointing out up-thread that while there are some very nice marketing videos for d20Pro, I haven't discovered any "Two-Minute Tutorials" in video format just quickly showing some of d20Pro's features / abilities. I think those would benefit folks trying to compare and contrast Virtual Tabletops (as well as help new users grasp the fundamentals in quick, easy-to-digest and process bits).

Thank you for all your help,

-- Andy

 

I actually bought both and modules for both to get use to how they work
FG I have had a long time D20Pro comparatively recently..I find FG2 prettier nice rolling dice..all SRD doc of OGL available inside may even be more finished....and just too bit picky to quickly add people maps charas npcs handouts....FG2 i found had a steep leaning curve..D20 pro is more intuitive.. it flows better games run faster players can move maps and look at diff stuff to me The actual game play seems to run more quickly since I switched over with my hybrid 3 remote 3 local player game

But yes still work to do. New FOW is great. Some people have done a lot of bestiary and map importing thats super but spells have to be individ set up and hro lab has problems importing some of the wierd class feats i check the imported toon back to the pdf i print from HeroLab couple of very minor errors and frankly i often ignore them for Gameflow

What might make it easier to start a single map one off encounter bundled with game to show straight off how it works. Yes its got an easier learning curve.. but its a really good idea to read the manual. Unfortunately i was brought up in a boyish owrm (only wimps read manuals) environment closely related to boys dont ask for directions... and that slowed me down at first.

Still doubtless I've learned nothing from this