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Mapping Software

Discussion in 'User Created Content' started by heruca, Mar 5, 2017.

  1. heruca

    heruca Member

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    Heh! And here I thought I was moving into a less competitive market, LOL!

    Funny about the identical choice of name for the software. The guy who owns "www.mapforge.com" was completely unresponsive when I offered to buy the domain. He's been squatting on that domain for like a decade, IIRC.

    I'm considering Unity for future projects. How's it working out for you?

    FYI, there's more mapping software competition headed our way.

    Good luck with World Builder.

    PS: Do you have a price point in mind for WB, yet?
     
  2. heruca

    heruca Member

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    Oh, and ummm, given this development, should I stop posting about MapForge here?
     
  3. owlbear

    owlbear Administrator
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    no way!!! all for friendly competition if you are. We've been in the same space for a long time, this is just another case of like minded folk.

    Myself and the whole D20PRO team are super stoked by how well your kickstarter has done and eager to see where you go from here!
     
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  4. heruca

    heruca Member

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  5. Josh Scott

    Josh Scott New Member

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    Great that TWO prestigious factions are going after a needed solution! I jumped on funding Mapforge quickly because it looked good and I'm still bummed that I missed out on the funding window for d20pro by like 18 months.
     
  6. owlbear

    owlbear Administrator
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    Well, the new Feature Library and inventory systems are right around the corner as well as the updated networking so the wait is "nearly over!"
     
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  7. owlbear

    owlbear Administrator
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    And yeah, totally missed this post as I was on my way out the door. We had a similar issue with the domain which was the reason we eventually pivoted away from MapForge. I'd been working with the trapdoor folk back in October to build "The Forge" -- a mapping and campaign building/managing toolchest. MapForge was the name we'd settled on prior to walking into that discussion because I like blacksmithing :p

    Re: Unity -- huge fan. We do AR and VR work using it for various clients. Honestly, working in Unity has been an absolute dream come true. I enjoy working on D20PRO but I'm less enthralled with java as a code base, although it's growing on me. Unity lets me, personally, stretch my artist legs while still scratching my programmer itch. It's fast, powerful and the ability to build directly to webGL in the recent editions is fantastic. Still not attaching to some of the newer, more common libraries like D3 and such, but there's a lot of potential to integrate into very interesting spaces.

    As to World Engine, we're running it as an online tool for desktops and tablets. I've personally been using it since 2014 (the core anyway) to build all of our GenCon "Crawl" event maps. Working with Monkeyblood designs, we built a core set of tiles back then for the Crawl II. The app languished for a long time because of the previous kickstarter and would only get attention before a GenCon build phase where I'd remember that it needed X, Y or Z.

    After this past GenCon, I took World Engine as a back pocket project to clear my head between particularly knotty Java OOP issues. Reflection can cause me to have fits! After a particularly successful few days with the app, we decided to put real energy into it (back in December). The result is the growing tool we have now. Functional as is, but definitely not ready for full roll out. The Kickstarter is to help us put the additional time (not mine, I'm coding on D20PRO) into the app and bring it the rest of the way home.

    For pricing, we're looking at a low cost subscription model for the application with a mid and higher tier for additionally tools, tiles and the like. The development cycle is likely to sit in the 4 - 6 month window and we're offering backers an additional 3 months of access after the official launch (post alpha phase and beta phase). The result is 7 - 9 months of application access for a discounted 6-month payment commitment.

    Once live, billing options will be 1 month, 6 month or 12 month blocks for Basic (Surveyor) and Pro (Topographer), while the VIP (Cartographer) tier will only be available in 6 or 12 month blocks to prevent dipping -- gamers dip for extra bennies? Rogue/Paladin?

    During the kickstarter we're offering the chance for folks to lock in a lower rate for 6-mo subscriptions based on their contribution. The numbers below are WIP for our early bird offerings.

    Basic: Surveyor @ $16 includes a
    • base asset library (tiles, patterns, objects, etc)
    • standard tools (pens, brushes, filters, etc)
    • marketplace access for additional assets/tools
    • digital (VTT) quality map export
    • locked in discounted 6-month subscription rate
    Pro: Topographer @ $32
    • expanded base asset library (moar!)
    • expanded tool set (art brushes, watercolor, etc)
    • special offers on marketplace assets and tools
    • print quality map exports
    • locked in discounted 6-month subscription rate
    VIP: Cartographer @ $54
    • nearly all of the tiles in our library (some vendors have asked to hold back certain sets due to license restrictions)
    • the complete tool set
    • special pricing on premium (licensed) assets in the marketplace
    • print quality map exports
    • locked in discounted 6-month subscription rate

    We're considering, and still determining, if we need to attach a save slot cap for the different tiers. As a webapp, storage can be an issue over time and based on adoption.

    As to additional competition, don't I know it! DungeonFog was the one that lit the fire under our posteriors -- then you went and sent me that great email about MapForge and the race was on! I was one of the folks who downloaded your preview the same day you sent the email campaign!

    In the end, I'm an artist first and foremost. This means that I believe in having and understanding all the tools for a given art style.

    Possibly the biggest plus of being able to spend some time working on this kickstarter setup has been the requirement to build some maps using the Engine!

    Again, congratulations on your massive success thus far. And with 17-days to go, there's still plenty of race left!
     
  8. heruca

    heruca Member

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    I've noticed that a good number of backers of my campaign have previously invested in several other map-making projects, most notably the Hex Kit KS which just ended, and the isometric mapper that came before it. It would seem that some folks like to have a number of different tools at their disposal, depending on the type of map they're wanting to make, so there's room in the market for apps that take different approaches.

    It seems like a lot of stuff these days is going subscription-based. I understand the need for a recurring cost, because you'll need to have the servers up and running 24-7 for years and years, and those costs add up. But coming at it from a user's perspective, being subscription-based may prove to be a deterrent to wide-scale adoption. But who knows? Apps like Roll20 and Tabletopia certainly managed to make the whole subscription-based thing work out for them, so there's hope.

    For me, though, the fact that it's web-based might be the bigger issue. Perhaps for some folks, internet access is ubiquitous in their lives, but for me it certainly isn't. Do the tiles and other artwork need to be downloaded each time one logs in to make a map? Or do those assets get saved locally in a cache, to be reused in future sessions? I take it that it uses low-resolution proxies while you work on a map, and then when you go to export it accesses the high-res assets on the server?

    I agree that one of the fun parts of all this is going to be being able to spend time making maps. I've always enjoyed the creative process.
     
  9. heruca

    heruca Member

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    By the way, congrats on getting David Hemenway as one of your artists. He's got some really great content. I was hoping some of it would end up in MapForge, but he opted out before my campaign launched. :(
     
  10. owlbear

    owlbear Administrator
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    Thanks, I think they'll all come around eventually. Again, niche market and all.
     
  11. owlbear

    owlbear Administrator
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    Agreed, we went back and forth about network based tools however, for a tablet, having the file repository live else where is a massive advantage. The fewer resources the application requires on a tablet in terms of storage the better. There are other several reasons to do this as well. The VIP/Cartographer will have nearly complete access to all of the tiles offered in the world engine marketplace. By keeping the annual cost low, and growing the library at a regular basis, there is real value to be had for this type of account.

    Still, I'm with you regarding the offline access and eventually we'll be able to offer a dedicated app for that (further down the road). Think about the way netflix and xfinity as well as other entertainment streamers are enabling temporary downloads -- we'd be able to do something like this as well.
    Depending on how well we do on KS, this might be one of the stretch goals.

    As to handling for resolute tiles, yes and no. Right now in the preview the Level of Detail logic is disabled because it's not ready for us. So tiles are being pulled at full res. This means some of the larger tiles are heavy to load and take a few moments. This will become nearly instant in the near future tho.. and actually, yeah, I can fix that now! We've already added a low res thumbnail system to enable fast album loading. By replacing the ghost tile ref with the thumb instead of the full tile, we can save a bit of processing.

    Behind the scenes, a given tile will have 3 - 6 resolution states depending on the vendor. At minimum, thumb, ghost, and full. Ideally, we'll have thumb, ghost and 4 more states of LOD which are loaded async when the creator zooms/scrolls etc.

    That being said, in our initial/original build, I created maps in excess of 200x200 grid units using 300dpi images on an ipad air. Getting the map out of that early build the GenCon 2014 Crawl was a bear tho!

    Oh, so the DungeonFog guys want in on the conversation! I say more the merrier. So expect some more chat inbound here :)
     
  12. heruca

    heruca Member

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    Consider me duly impressed! I wouldn't have thought mobile devices would have the RAM to handle a map that size, especially if there are many layers.

    Sure! I just read up on their blog entries and watched their videos, so I'm no longer clueless about it. Wanna maybe split the thread?
     
  13. owlbear

    owlbear Administrator
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    I'll ask Kril to split us into a general maps and mapping tools discussion. (good idea btw). You have just discovered my weakness -- I could program a tool do split the thread, but have no idea how to admin a forum ;)
     
  14. kinwolf

    kinwolf Member

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    Personally, the biggest weakness I find in a subscription model, and probably the only reason that will stop me from pledging on the KS, is that you can't "pause" a subscription.(It would be great if we could though *hint* *hint*) What I mean by that is, for casual gamers like me, that create maps for a campaign, but then goes months without creating more(because we only play once every 2 weeks, so a campaign last a loooonnnnnnngg time) paying a subs means paying a year for maybe 5 weeks of use. Not that great of a ratio and when the wife finds out, you have to answer to "The Stare". Believe me, you'd prefer facing a fully grown beholder instead of "The Stare".

    I'm also turned off by the premium you have to pay when some software allows you to pay monthly, but punish you for it with a higher price. So I'd love to one day see companies do some kind of advance in subscriptions plans where you could pay for a year, but then be able to pause it and resume at a later time. A minimum of 30 days before the next pause could be put in place to make it manageable.

    Actually, Paizo kind of do that with their AP, but it's all manual since you have to send an email to stop it, and then resubscribe at a later time. Could be done easily these days programmatically.
     
  15. heruca

    heruca Member

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    LOL@ "The Stare"!

    But good point about subscriptions not being a good fit for casual gamers.
     
  16. owlbear

    owlbear Administrator
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    Well, the plan here is that app access starts at 5-bucks a month. That's 5-dollars for a 30-day period and we provide a limited set of tiles with that buy-in. However, any tiles you've purchased from participating vendors from the World Engine or D20PRO marketplace are cross accessible. So that means that you can use it, put it down and pick it up again at a fairly low spend.

    For VIP, where we provide access to nearly everything in the tile lib, that's where we cannot do the pay-as-you-go model. We need to make sure the vendors are getting a share of the revenue in order to keep the content available.

    The Pro plan will likely sit at 10-bucks a month for a vastly increased tool library and print quality output, so this again, can be a pay-as-you-go where you retain ownership and cross-access to tiles purchases between the products.

    Obviously this is a work-in-progress, but I've run a bunch of numbers, scenarios and dungeon crawls -- the result seems to be that this kind of model works best. All accounts are shared between D20PRO and World Engine, so even if you don't have WE access at the moment, all of your saves, owned tiles and the rest are still yours. There is even a very real likelihood that you'll be able to access your saved content and export while an account is dormant.

    TBD on some of this as we're new to subs as well!
     
  17. heruca

    heruca Member

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    Does the $5/month plan allow for print resolution output?
     
  18. owlbear

    owlbear Administrator
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    It depends on what you mean by "print". In this case we're talking the 300 - 600 range of res for "print" with anything below 300 dpi being digital.

    So you're still talking about some really good tiles at those resolutions see the 1 inch x 1 inch samples below
    (keep in mind this is the pre-image processor output -- so this is all running client side at the moment, the eventual image processor will run server side and allow much higher resolution output as well as filters and other manipulation tools)

    1x1 @ 150 dpi (high Digital)

    1x1_150dpi.png

    1x1 @ 300 dpi (low Print)

    1x1_300dpi.png
     
  19. Wesley Gorby

    Wesley Gorby Production/Community Manager
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    Thread split by Admin request. I picked what seemed to be a good flow break point in the original conversation.
     
  20. owlbear

    owlbear Administrator
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    Thanks Kril!
     

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