The Power of No

I Absolutely Agree.
Well Done Sir.

 

Daeruin - well said.

Resources for creation have to be balanced with philosophy of design.

That all being said, I've read the docs (mostly) and trolled here (a bunch) and I'm still a little in the dark as to with the focus is. I'm NOT saying I should have a say over what the focus is (any more than whining in the forums as I do now).

Is the focus described somewhere? As a potential customer (which I'm not) and a continuing customer (which I am and will stay) I don't think it's unreasonable to ask "where are we going in the near and far future?" Mostly so I know if my whining is helping or just moaning in the wind.

Kizan

 

One of our main philosophies is d20Pro is a gaming tool and not a game.

In design meetings when we discuss what the users want some of the suggests start off sounding good then as we talk through them we realize that the idea in question would be more game and less tool like. One I recalled was going a top down 3d look like (this was awhile back) What we would gain from that in coolness compared to coding dealing with three dimensions would only add a game feel and not really help in the DM tool department.

Another philosophy that came in later was to be as game system agnostic as possible. That way we can support as many as possible. While our main engine runs d20 game system we want to support others where possible.

Does that help any?

Good point on the power of No... maybe we should say no to you guys more often then?

 

I think that's a good start, but it would be really nice to know what you guys have lined up to work on.

For instance, if you've noticed other posts of mine, I'd really like d20pro to handle spells better. that is, to know what damage a fireball cast by a lvl 7 character does, and what the saving throw DC is. Obviously, this means making d20Pro LESS system agnostic and more closely tied to the d20 system.

Another example is fog of war. I know that you guys are working on it, but if someone came and asked me HOW I know? Um, I think there's a post in the feature request where someone asked for it and somebody else with a colored name said they'd seen a proof of concept.

That being said, I'm not sure where I'd put this information if it were my decision. Perhaps a sticky in the feature request subforum that gets periodically updated. this would also help manage expectation for the next release. i must admit to being a little disappointed more useful spell effects functionality was not a part of the 3.0 release.

I will say that it is nice to hear that you seem to be asking the question "Does this help the DM do his job?" for each feature request.

 

The effects system is my baby and I have been sadly not be able to put a lot of code time for the past couple years (due to a now 2 and a 3 year old they are 5 hand fulls and my wife and I only have 4 hands!)

Though I am starting to get more time to dedicate to coding. One of the things on the top of my list is improving the effects system and looking at merging them with the spell system to fix that and give the users more power! Also improvements to the herolabs importer to bring in more abilities and other goodies.

Current efforts are talking with Content Providers to get more in the Marketplace.

I will try to post little tidbits in the Feature Request of any spoilers we can let out of what is coming up. That is a good idea to make a sticky post. Though it will have a disclaimer along the lines of "While we are working on these it does NOT mean they may ever be released." Just in case we are trying something and it ends up being a giant turd.

 

Maybe the D20Pro guys should post an official D20Pro list of what features they are "For Sure" working on with a completion percentage next to each feature so the users who post on this forum are'nt guessing what features are actually getting attention and which ones have fallen to the wayside.

Speaking of which, If you guys at D20Pro know for certain that there is a request or feature that will NEVER make any final cut, then let us, the users know that the D20Pro team doesn't plan on using said request or feature because it doesn't fit into the "tool" software catagory that D20Pro is known to be.

 

I think a list of features the d20Pro team wants to implement would be a good step in the direction of defining the philosophy of the product. I don't think it needs to have a "percent completed" column though. There can be much time spent documenting progress which is time away from actually developing the product! Major and minor mile stone features would be great. Maybe a rough timeline/roadmap as to the order in which you'd LIKE to release them. Real life happens especially when only a few people are working on a product. One sick relative or birth in the family can cause all sorts of changes with product timelines and roadmaps. And that HAS to be OK with users.

Perhaps an better perspective of the d20Pro coding and testing staff would help users to understand. Having a small nimble team means that a new feature request can be put into the product quickly, but also that one sick child can put the product on hold while real life is resolved (as it should).

As much as I revile this concept...I'll suggest it here. Perhaps an actual vision/mission/philosophy statement about d20Pro would help to put broad boundaries on the intended use (note not actual use) for d20Pro. Users would then have an understanding if what they are asking for is something that fits within that concept. I think starting with "d20Pro is a gaming tool and not a game." is a GREAT philosophy (mostly because it matches what I want from a VTT). Seriously though this statement should not be over-pedantically long (like that pun) or complex in it's statement. KISS is very very applicable as we are all gamer/rules lawyers at heart.

Thanx,

Kizan

 

So basically your saying, "Don't take what your consumers are saying into condsideration because 99% of the users are just going to buy it anyways."

For as much as you think some of the ideas on this forum don't fit into the D20Pro mold, the D20Pro team uses this forum as a marketing tool to see what the consumers want to see in a final D20Pro product.

In the business world, free market research is GOLD! And we're giving it to you. YOUR WELCOME!

Ask the D20Pro guys where they got the idea for an online marketplace. Or where they got links for potential online marketplace content.

Just because there is a completion percentage attached to a feature and god forbid us users are updated from time to time, doesn't mean that the D20Pro guys could'nt release a statement saying that the feature in question just isn't going to work. We the users will understand. Not the end of the world.

And I don't ever remember anyone suggesting that D20Pro switch to a video game format. I don't need an interactive AI or computer rendered story videos or any other feature that leads anyone to think its a video game.

When us users suggest a feature, its just that, a suggestion. Take it or leave it.

 

So don't make a promise you can't keep........just because you tell the consumer your working on specific features doesn't mean you "PROMISE" it'll happen.

Unless you specifically say "I PROMISE" it'll happen.

Then its your fault for saying that.

I've actually heard the D20Pro guys and other people on the forums say that D20Pro isn't a video game. We understand that as users. We get it, its a VTT, move on.

OK you said, "d20Pro is a gaming tool and not a game", sorry I jumped the gun. I think I was told "its not a video game" when I asked if it was possible if battlemaps could be made with doors that open and make a opening sound when you click them and then the fog of war would reveal that room. If thats someones idea of a video game then i'd like to introduce them to the PS3. Gonna blow their mind! :lol:

 

If I were to speculate and broadly define the basic statement "d20Pro is a gaming tool and not a game". I think I would contend the following:

d20Pro intends to assist or facilitate the following concepts:

• 
  - Automate mathematical concepts presented in the rule set in order to speed game play.
  - Virtualize the basic map functions. Present maps, move icons/tokens on that map. Does not mean FOW.
  - Virtualize the basic communication functions. At a most basic level that may only be public chat window (but it could and is more).
  - Draw content and users together in an easy interface to make using content easier. A marketplace.

Are these starting points we can all agree on?

Kizan

 

Sure, we can agree on those points.


But business model and keeping up with competing softwares like "Battlegrounds" and "Maptools"(Which is free by the way) are two different things altogether.

Heres the list of VTT's on the market:
D20Pro
Battlegrounds
Epic Table
Fantasy Grounds II
Game Table
Klooge Works
Matools(Free)
Open RPG
Screen Monkey
All of which are competing with D20Pro for distribution of their softwares.

And alot of those softwares use Fog of War and all the little frilly's you guys are all so afraid of. So in order to compete I say, Why not add bells and whistles to keep sales of D20Pro up?

I'm just sayin.....

 

We may have to agree to disagree here. The business model (exhorted by a mission/vision statement) should be driving the software of the company. When it's the otherway around the company usually winds up going out of business because they are chasing unprofitable features on the whims of customers, shareholders, (or worse) management.

My completely unofficial answer is that it must not match up with the business model and d20Pro design philosophy they have in mind. Possibly they do not believe as you do that it will keep sales up. Or it could be that they would like to implement those features but other priorities jumped ahead. It starts with the design philosophy and goes from there. I believe that most of the "bells, whistles and frills" are just that...nice but not really required. That's not to say they aren't nice features, but I would prefer a solid app over something that has many poorly implemented features. I think that's one of the features d20Pro has over it's competitors.

I think that a longer and more well defined design philosophy would help to settle (for good or bad) some of the issues you've raised. Having it would allow users, customers, competitors even to compare the features available in d20Pro and to decide if it meets their needs.

Much like purchasing a car or truck. You must purchase the vehicle that meets your needs. For example, a truck is can be purchased for hauling heavy loads and a sub-compact car is great for good gas mileage and parking in those tiny parking spots in the parking garage. But if you bought a truck to park in those spots...you purchased the wrong vehicle (either by accident or by swindle). Not knowing the full (or nearly full) design purpose for d20Pro leads to these types of tug-of-wars. Where all sides are "right" because no definition has been broadly defined.

I think it's over-aggressive to say that anyone is "scared" of a feature. Given the design/coding time lag and man power availability is sounds like what you are saying is that you don't like the set of features they chose to implement. If true, that's fair opinion to have. If true and you really are this upset about it why haven't you switched to another app that has more of the features you keep asking for? (I'm not really asking for a blow-by-blow accounting of why you made your decision. I'm asking, why if you are so unhappy are you still using d20Pro?)

Kizan

 

WORD!

 

Hear Hear!

 

Thank you!

None of us are the kind of person to "call you out" as the saying goes. We all listen to what you, the users, have to say and we then do our best to prioritize the lists of things we need and want to put in. Then we work on those at the top of the list.

I for one love to hear the input from the users both the good and the bad. Though nobody likes to hear bad things about things they created it is necessary to make it better. Negative input is sometimes more valuable then positive, though not as easy to swallow sometimes.

I wanted to thank you guys for taking the time to discuss this on our forum to help us improve. I will be talking to the rest of the team about this thread so we and find a good way to express current and near future development to the user base.

 

Hoody-Who!

Thanx for listening!

Kizan