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About the updates and low hanging fruit

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Remaker, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. Remaker

    Remaker Member

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    Let me start out be saying that I researched a lot of VTT programs before choosing D20Pro and I still believe that D20 is the best program on the market for those of us trying to recreate an 'authentic' 3E-type game online. In fact, some of its features are so powerful that we will probably use D20 to resolve large combats even if we do meet in person. I have definitely gotten my money's worth from the product as is, and still recommend it to anyone looking for a good solution to the problem of remote gaming.

    That being said, I know that I'm not the only one that thinks that the last year's worth of updates have been going in the wrong direction. There is a lot of low hanging fruit that is being ignored in favor of expensive and secondary features. Here is a list of relatively inexpensive things that would improve the D20 experience immensely:

    1) Hot Keys and Tool Bars For Everything. One-click access to common tools like fog of war, dice bag, and drawing tools would be a big help. You currently have to dig through several menus to get at them and then you have to deal with having an big open window on a program where screen space is super important. Everything (and I mean everything) should be hot keyed. Some of the more commonly used items could have permanent icons on the top of the screen. A nice way of implementing this would be having, say, a fog of war icon that directly opens the FoW menu, but also having a second, smaller icon that just selects the last FoW tool used without opening any menus. This alone would knock lots of time off of our sessions.

    2) Give Spell Effects the Same Functionality as Abilities Abilities let you permanently save duration and DC, but for some reason you have to redefine these things every single time if you use the spell tab. I've never understood that design decision and am honestly surprised that it has lasted through so many versions. Ideally, I would like spells to be dynamically calculated based on the characters stats (the way that physical attacks are), but this is a thread about low-cost improvements.

    3) Give the Other Stats the Same Treatment as Armor Class Being able to break down ability, save, and initiative bonuses into sub-types with automatic handling of stacking would be a huge time-saver. Armor Class already does this, so I know it can be done.

    Things that would be more expensive, but would have a huge impact:

    1) Better Player-Side Control of Characters We really need this. When the wizard wants to change his spell list, it brings the game to a screeching halt as he slowly reads his new spell list to me. This is a situation where using D20 is actually slower than doing it by hand. Unlike other situations where handling it on paper is faster, I can't just skip this step.

    2) Fix the Magic System I think this should be a much higher priority than it has been in the past, much higher than chat features or virtual marketplaces or other nice but ancillary features. D20 can't (gracefully) handle classes that stack caster levels with each other, and the spell tab is so close to being useless that even the developers suggest not using it. I consider this to be a core functionality and would like to see it getting the attention it deserves.

    Really expensive things that would be nice.

    Dynamic Fog of War: Yeah, it would be cool, and I am glad that it's being worked on, but this is a much, much lower priority for me than the other stuff. We played on physical table tops for years where dynamic FoW wasn't even possible, we can get along without it for a while longer. We really need better core features first.

    Anyways, I hope that this is taken in the spirit that it was given in. I understand that the development team doesn't owe me anything and I have gotten more than my $20 worth of value from them, but as long as they continue to generously devote resources to further development, I'd like to give feedback on what I think about the direction that development is going.
     
    #1 Remaker, Nov 11, 2011
  2. ChrisRevocateur

    ChrisRevocateur Member

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    +100
     
    #2 ChrisRevocateur, Nov 11, 2011
  3. kridak

    kridak New Member

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    I would put FoW above all of those.

    I am happy with the system, clumsy in places, yes, but workable. Are spells a PITA? Hell ya. But at least we can use them, as poorly thought out as they were.

    There is NO FoW.

    Needs to be top priority in my opinion.
     
    #3 kridak, Nov 11, 2011
  4. ChrisRevocateur

    ChrisRevocateur Member

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    Ummm..... what? No FoW? That's completely untrue. There isn't DYNAMIC FoW, that is true. To me, dynamic FoW is less important than an improved utility and UI for a tool that would reduce how much I have to look things up in books. It could be better, but the manual FoW is still a million times better than what we are able to do on an analog table.
     
    #4 ChrisRevocateur, Nov 12, 2011
  5. Daeruin

    Daeruin New Member

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    I totally agree. 100%.
     
    #5 Daeruin, Nov 14, 2011
  6. ogexam

    ogexam Member

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    First that you for picking d20Pro and thank you for your input.

    Dynamic Fog of War is in the works and is starting to look really good. Not ready just yet, but when it comes out you should be very pleased.

    Many of the other items are already on our radar in in the queue to be fixed/addressed. ]

    Thank you!
     
    #6 ogexam, Nov 14, 2011
  7. Fubbles the baby cow

    Fubbles the baby cow New Member

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    Can I get an 'AMEN' to fixing the spell applications? Hell yes!

    Truthfully speaking, I was just about ready to make my purchase of D20 pro, but then discovered how badly spells are handled, and now I am back on the fence. To me, this seems to be a core function of the program that is not well addressed, and detracts from the overall value of the product.

    How about assigning a single key to be used as an on-screen pointer? I really liked this feature on MapTools and wondered why there wasn't an equivalent in D20 Pro
     
    #7 Fubbles the baby cow, Nov 14, 2011
  8. firebringer

    firebringer Member

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    (#1 AAA super duper priority for our gaming group) Not only should the spell and effects interface be redesigned and streamlined, if I had my druthers it would come pre-loaded with all the spells AT LEAST from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, and hopefully the Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat would be available for marketplace purchase.

    Either that, or greatly expand d20Pro's import support of Herolab portfolio exports, since Herolab seems to get new Pathfinder content built into their app at the speed of light.

    Now that I think about it, greater support for Herolab portfolio exports in general, aside from simply the spells, is of extreme importance too (for our gaming group).

    Firebringer
     
    #8 firebringer, Nov 15, 2011
  9. Remaker

    Remaker Member

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    I think part of the issue with this is the potential legal pitfalls. Mindgene is a small company that can't afford even a spurious lawsuit. I think it's best to just create the tools and then let the users compile and distribute libraries on their own. People have already made complete libraries of the Pathfinder bestiary and pre-genned NPCs of every class and level. We'll have a comprehensive spell library floating around on these boards within a week of getting the tools.
     
    #9 Remaker, Nov 15, 2011
  10. firebringer

    firebringer Member

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    Maybe I'm misunderstanding the purpose of the marketplace. Can end users not create content (i.e. Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, APG, etc.) and then sell it through the marketplace? Is it only for content created by Mindgene? In either case, Mindgene would certainly still want Paizo's blessing to allow any Pathfinder-centric content for sale.

    I should have added to my earlier post that I would like to see all possible Paizo content available, either pre-packaged or available for purchase through the marketplace (created by end users or Mindgene), with Paizo's blessing, explicit and legal.

    Certainly I would not want nor ask Mindgene to place themselves in a legally grey area, but given the increase in popularity of VTTs over the last couple of years I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to think that the lines of communication between Paizo and Mindgene couldn't include protection from litigation for creating or allowing the creation of Pathfinder specific content for purchase through d20Pro.

    I started thinking that Paizo likely doesn't take issue with d20Pro and Mindgene creating Pathfinder content when I realized that Paizo didn't protest Mindgene having a link on their forums to download what amounts to the complete bestiary, from which Paizo gained nothing financially. While Mindgene didn't create that content, and didn't profit financially from posting a link to it on their forums, if Paizo really took issue with it I'm pretty sure all it would have taken is a single phone call for that link (and others like it) to be removed.

    I guess my point is, hopefully there is communication happening behind the scenes between Mindgene and Paizo to the effect of: "Hey Paizo, recognizing that you are now the predominant flag carrier for d20-based gaming, and we (Mindgene) want to be the premiere d20-based VTT, how can we help each other out and not step on each other's toes legally or financially?'

    Firebringer
     
    #10 firebringer, Nov 16, 2011
  11. ogexam

    ogexam Member

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    The marketplace is for publishers (Paizo, Green Ronin, Some guy with cool maps, etc.) to sell their content in d20Pro format. We are not planning on making content ourselves. We did put some of the content we made to promote d20Pro into the marketplace because we already have license to sell the products since they are ours.

    We would love for Paizo to sell all its content through our markeplace. We would love for all publishers to sell content, heck we would even love it for WoTC to sell content in our marketplace (doubt that will ever happen though).

    We are in contact with the large publishers but I will let you in on a secret. A lot of the big publishers won't go into a market until they hear their customers asking them about said market. You can help get Paizo to publish in the d20Pro marketplace by going to the Paizo forums or emailing them directly requesting that they sell the content in the marketplace!

    Please feel free to ask any and all content publishers that you would like to see their content in d20Pro. While companies listen to other companies they listen even more to thier own customers!
     
    #11 ogexam, Nov 16, 2011
  12. Kizan

    Kizan New Member

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    #12 Kizan, Nov 16, 2011
  13. ChrisRevocateur

    ChrisRevocateur Member

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    Just sayin' the Bestiary (both of them) are completely open content. So is UC, UM, and the APG. Under OGL, Paizo CAN'T make a call to remove that link, because the OGL makes open content completely and utterly *yoink*ible, even to use for a profit, as long as you include a copy of the license with the release.

    So I guess technically, for it to be legal, the download file with the complete bestiary should include a txt doc with the OGL in it, but considering it was a community based, profit free project, I doubt they'd even care that much.

    So yeah, if you wanted to create all the official pathfinder stuff (minus campaign setting, adventure path, and companion lines) for d20Pro and put it up on the marketplace at what you thought was a fair price for the work you put in, then you can. You just can't use the art from the books, and you would have to include a copy of the OGL somehow.
     
    #13 ChrisRevocateur, Nov 16, 2011
  14. Daeruin

    Daeruin New Member

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    Chris makes a good point. In fact, Paizo gives all the content of their books away for free on their own website, in the form of interlinked web pages. However, I would still love to see official d20pro content from Paizo. I'm going to join in the thread Kizan created.
     
    #14 Daeruin, Nov 16, 2011
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