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I'm about fed up with this software. Not sure why I've paid for this.

Discussion in 'Bug Reports & Installation Support' started by darthgator, Oct 5, 2016.

  1. darthgator

    darthgator New Member

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    Every single map we use with fog of war and shadowcasting DOES. NOT. WORK.

    Every ------ time, PCs can only see their own creatures. Nothing changes this. I have literally adjusted every setting in the software to try and fix this, and it NEVER works.

    Why did I back a Kickstarter for a piece of ----- software that never works properly in real life?
     
    #1 darthgator, Oct 5, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2016
  2. Wesley Gorby

    Wesley Gorby Production/Community Manager
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    I understand things can get frustrating. I assure you the SC system does work.

    couple things..

    1 please do not use profanity, there just is no need for that in this venue.

    2 could you help with giving a bit more detail; a screenshot of the map? a screen shot of the lights tab in game tools? a screenshot of the GM screen. a screenshot of a players screen?

    3 possible export the map you are using with the tokens on it, attach it here, so we can take a look at how you have SC and lights setup?
     
  3. darthgator

    darthgator New Member

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    Whatever.

    Clearly a customer being frustrated and venting that frustration on your forums is too much for you to handle. I tend to get a bit upset when I've spent hours converting maps to run in your crap software, tested them extensively myself, and then when I open it in-game, no one can see anything but the tokens they own.

    If there were some way to request a refund from the Kickstarter I backed, I'd seriously consider it. I had high hopes for this software, but after 2 years it's still garbage. I guess I'll try to find a piece of software that actually works.
     
  4. Tay-Dor

    Tay-Dor Active Member

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    Seems odd that its not working for your players. If you send your maps to the Devs, they are very helpful. Maybe there is something you are missing? I've had issues, but the Devs have resolved them fairly quickly and helpfully.

    This may seem like a stupid question, but have you made sure the PC lights are tethered to the PC tokens and are owned by the PC tokens? lightbox.png
    One of the times my players couldn't see is because somehow the light ownership was removed.

    I feel bad that you've had problems. I'm a kickstarter as well.
     
  5. darthgator

    darthgator New Member

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    There are no lights to tether because it's an outside map; the only light in effect is sunlight that's been made both visible and public; I shudder to think what would happen if I tried to use a fully indoor map in a dungeon or cave environment. (Two PCs have darkvision, 60' for one and 120' for the other, both of which I set manually when they're added to the maps from the library, both of which are set to 'visible' and NOT 'public'. But even THEY can't see any other tokens on the maps.) I've manually set every token's visiblity to 'dynamic'. The only time the PCs can see anything is when I completely shut off fog of war/shadow casting. Kind of defeats the purpose of using this software if it refuses to work properly.
     
  6. edwardcd

    edwardcd Administrator
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    Would you be able to export this map and provide a share link for us to download and test. This way we can either see what documentation needs to be improved, or see what issue is causing this to fix in a future version. Thanks :)
     
  7. darthgator

    darthgator New Member

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    Screenshot 1: Current settings A. I've tested this with the 'Auto show reactive FoW Regions' checkbox both checked and unchecked. I have manually set all creatures' visibility to 'dynamic' since I can't find any information in any of the guides what the default visibility setting is. If I set the visibility to 'visible', all tokens are visible above the FoW (which is what's intended, I believe). I could set all of the PCs' visibilities to 'visible' so they can see each other no matter what, but they shouldn't be visible to one another if there are no light sources. The dynamic visibility should work and be applied to every token automatically. Screenshot 5.PNG

    Screenshot 2: Current settings B. FoW visibility settings. I have an edge and mask drawn around the map's perimeter ('Map Perimeter'), as well as around the Stockade Walls and the Stockade Shelter (labeled b). The map's light sources are shown in the screenshot above.

    Screenshot 9.PNG

    Screenshot 3: GM window on the right and 2 player windows in local test mode on the left. Neither PC can see the other on their screens despite the settings shown and discussed above. The edge/mask combinations around the stockade are working appropriately at least.
    Screenshot 1.PNG

    Screenshot 4: The first PC has moved into the stockade and the software has sent the reveal request as it should. So far, so good...aside from the PCs still not being able to see one another.
    Screenshot 2.PNG

    Screenshot 5: I approved the reveal request and everything associated with the public light sources became visible to all PCs. I guess that's as intended, but I dislike the functionality; only the PC(s) inside the secondary area should be able to see it. (Apparently I have to assign personal lights to each PC and make them visible only to that PC to keep visibility limited to individual characters? So, if I have a party in a winding cave complex and the lead PC goes around a corner with a visible, public light, all of the PCs will see what's around the corner and not just the one carrying the light. I guess that's a minor annoyance that may require lots of extra coding to correct so it isn't terribly value added since (usually) the rest of the PCs will be rounding that corner in just a few seconds anyway.)

    The bigger concern is that neither of the vine chokers around the tree are visible to anyone (just as the PCs are invisible to each other). (As mentioned above, all visibility is set to dynamic, and there is no active FoW area over those tokens: They should be visible.) The only way I've been able to make any tokens visible is to manually set them to 'visible'...which pretty much defeats the entire purpose of FoW. Screenshot 3.PNG

    Screenshot 6: Then, when the PC moves back out of the secondary FoW area, it stays revealed. (This is apparently another time when only publicly visible light sources cause the FoW to react as it should. Probably not a big deal on most outdoor maps, but what about when the PCs enter a room in a castle or dungeon with stationary light sources, then they leave that room? Everything will still be visible unless the GM goes into the light menu and makes them hidden again. That's quite a hassle.) And there are still no other tokens visible to the PCs.
    Screenshot 4.PNG

    Screenshot 7: Thinking that perhaps not being in initiative is causing an issue, I move the first PC back into the stockade area and roll initiative. Nope. Still nothing visible to the PCs, though it's Vine Choker #2's turn; maybe that's the problem?
    Screenshot 6.PNG

    Screenshot 8: Nope. Initiative advances to the first PC, and STILL nothing else is visible to the PCs.
    Screenshot 7.PNG

    I can't find anything else to try. And just to add to my annoyance with this software and company...I apparently can't upload a file exported from d20Pro to the d20Pro forums (.map isn't an allowed extension)? That makes all kinds of sense...
     
    #7 darthgator, Oct 8, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  8. darthgator

    darthgator New Member

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    #8 darthgator, Oct 8, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2016
  9. Tay-Dor

    Tay-Dor Active Member

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    I found the problem. Its your Edges. When you completely close off the perimeter and wall edges, it appears to block visibility. When I removed the edges and redrew them with openings at the doors, everything seemed to work normally.

    GM View
    GMView.png

    Player view (Nuk)
    PlayerView.png
     
  10. Tay-Dor

    Tay-Dor Active Member

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    Tokens appear to drop onto maps already set to Dynamic visibility.

    Public lights are, unfortunately, always visible, unless you change the visibility of the mask the light is under. If the players have not revealed a mask, the lights won't be seen, except for any part of the light radius that interacts with revealed areas (as you can see some light coming out of the open door in my picture above.)
     
  11. Tay-Dor

    Tay-Dor Active Member

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    Other suggestion for outdoors, rather than multiple lights in exteriors, as players reach a particular outdoor mask, just set the mask to "Passive". Players will be able to see everything in a passive mask and any active masks will still block visibility. This will allow you to reveal your outdoors in stages, rather than all at once.
     
  12. Wesley Gorby

    Wesley Gorby Production/Community Manager
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    More than happy to listen to your frustration, more than happy to try and assist you. Using profanity at us and the other members here is not acceptable.

    yeah, I asked him that too :)

    Thank you Tay.
     
  13. darthgator

    darthgator New Member

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    Thanks Tay.

    Not your fault, but that's a ridiculous stipulation. If you don't have an edge around the perimeter of a map and only masks, any lights that extend beyond the edge of the map do just that - continue to the extent or their radii. Fine if you have a huge map whose edge the players will never approach, but since I'm running a Paizo Adventure Path, many of the maps I use are smaller than the extent of players' lights. It looks ridiculous to have lights hanging off the edge of the map illuminating the eternal void. Or, as in the map above, leaving a gap in the edge of the Stockade Shelter allows a light source the players have yet to reveal to illuminate a portion of the map they have no way of seeing. I guess I'll just have to draw the edges as close to closed as possible to reduce that effect. Either that or I have to be continually chasing light sources to change them to visible or not. This was supposed to make the game easier to run rather than create a thousand additional tech challenges for the GM to chase to maintain verisimilatude.

    Which leads to my biggest issue with the whole dynamic FoW and Shadow Casting since it's first iteration: drawing it is absolutely non-intuitive. Maybe it makes sense to programmers, but the distinction between edges, masks and walls is needlessly confusing. I can see a reason for the distinction between doors that can change state (blocking light/not blocking light) and a constant area that doesn't block light, but the three distinctions for those objects that block light? Not so much. I have yet to find a time when I would need to have that distinction. Give me a single type of 'constant state light blocker' and a single 'variable state light blocker' and the entire system becomes much simpler (and intuitive).
     
  14. Mickey

    Mickey Member

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    I agree with this and I have yet to see any documentation or video tutorials which go into enough detail to actually have it all make sense. The one video I have seen about this has things in it that aren't actually in the current release of the program e.g. inverting normals. I've got the current release and I can't see anything like is in the video. So, I don't know if the normals are facing in or out. It's frustrating without any decent documentation or tutorials to work with.
     
  15. Wesley Gorby

    Wesley Gorby Production/Community Manager
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    That's because there isn't any 'normals' interaction at this time. It was removed because the method of execution needed to be addressed due an unforeseen rendering bug that it introduced.

    Which is why there is little noticeable distinction from 'walls' and 'edges' at this time. At some point it will be corrected and 'edges' will take on a much different role in map layout.

    as it is right now, 'edge' are meant for small free standing elements of a map such as columns, statues or the like and 'walls' are for all other obstructions.

    'masks' cover areas, whether they have walls or edge in them or not. If they are set to 'Interactive' they interact with light sources and cast shadows. If they are set the 'Passive' they function just as the old FOW system did and are either 'Hidden' (blue) or revealed/shown (green) as toggled by the fow tool.
     
  16. Wesley Gorby

    Wesley Gorby Production/Community Manager
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    this by far the best option, rather than over using excessive lights that are only going to bog the map down when the same effect can be achieved by just using a simple mask.
     
  17. Tay-Dor

    Tay-Dor Active Member

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    I completely understand. If you want to use edges on the borders of your map, you can just draw them on one side. Make 3 nodes in a line and them double back to the first node. That will "close" the edge, while just being a straight line.
    [ ]------[ ]-------[ ]

    Doing the same for rooms helps leave spaces open for doors.

    edge room.png

    It does get easier with practice. The documentation for the process has been severely lacking. I've done more than my share of trial and error and pestering Krilion in Teamspeak to explain something to me. However, they are working on getting the documentation done.

    Until that point, please post your questions here in the forums. There are enough of us around that we should be able to answer any questions you might have. Shadowcasting is finally working like they promised and my players are enjoying it. I believe its only going to get better...tho it would be nice if public lights that weren't within line of sight weren't visible *cough* Owlbear *cough*. :)
     
  18. Tay-Dor

    Tay-Dor Active Member

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    Some other things you can do with edges. If you want an object the blocks light, but you don't want to hide the pretty artwork is to do some edges in an x-pattern.
    x-edge.png

    It works really great for trees and statues, etc.
    treex.png

    Its slightly more time consuming than painting patterns. Tho I recently figured out I can copy edges I've made and paste them around (Manipulate tab, select edge, click duplicate).
     
  19. mrwinfree

    mrwinfree Member

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    i have a question regarding maps and FoW too. Using PF Rise of the Runelords, I have applied edges, masks and walls to a map for the Kreeg stronghold. It is a large map, there are giants, ogres et al after all. No matter how high I set the memory, the program bogs down terribly. I have tested as a player on another computer and it works well enough, but as the game master, I do not have enough control of the map (scroll, zoom, movement of enemy/NPC) to make it usable. There are many enemies. Some with their own (non-public) lightsource. There will be 6-7 PCs each with a lightsource. I am including the map as it is in hopes you can help me with the lag.

    on a tangent, What are the capabilities of the Draw Tools>Edit Map Properties? I see this nine section grid and it would seem that I could place one map in each segment to create a really big map without D20pro having to utilize maximum resources to keep redrawing the big map but instead just the sections which are in play. am I off base here?
    (for the Clanhold.d20_maps file, I had to change the name to add the 's' otherwise the forum would not accept it as an unsupported file type.)
    Mickey
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Wesley Gorby

    Wesley Gorby Production/Community Manager
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    Edges should be used for free standing elements, such as statues, trees or other visual obstructions. You really should be using 'Open' walls 90% of the time. It is possible the over usage of edges is what is causing your drag. You should be able to 'Select' them all in the list and then click on 'Wall" button to change them to walls.

    I haven't opened your map yet, I'll look at it in a sec and see if I can offer better feedback...

    The 'Edit Map Properties' the grid you are seeing is for 'Resizing' options, when you imput a larger resize, those boxes allow you to set the orintation of the resize, centered, left, right etc...
     

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